From Metagovernment - Government of, by, and for all the people
BEGINNE LOGBUCH UM Sat Jun 7 15:02:32 2008
Jun 07 16:57:39 * EdPastore (firstname.lastname@example.org) hat #metascore betreten
Jun 07 16:58:27 <mbarkhau> hi
Jun 07 16:58:36 <EdPastore> Hi, Manuel
Jun 07 16:59:28 <EdPastore> Am I on? INFO says I need to register on freenode
Jun 07 16:59:42 <mbarkhau> yupp
Jun 07 16:59:48 * mbarkhau gibt Op-Status an EdPastore
Jun 07 17:01:34 <EdPastore> Well... I did get the imoression that more people were intending to show up
Jun 07 17:01:41 <EdPastore> Guess we can wait 5 and see what happens
Jun 07 17:02:07 <mbarkhau> I would have guessed, that at least aur would show up
Jun 07 17:05:14 <mbarkhau> it was all rather formal anyway, I think in future we can just make an anouncement on the list, in a fairly recent timeframe
Jun 07 17:05:26 <mbarkhau> or make it a weekly or biweekly thing
Jun 07 17:05:46 <EdPastore> I guess... I thought the advance notification would increase participation
Jun 07 17:06:12 <EdPastore> Though Saturday morning isn't my best time. :)
Jun 07 17:06:32 <mbarkhau> well its saturday night over here...
Jun 07 17:06:48 <EdPastore> Perhaps even worse.
Jun 07 17:06:58 <EdPastore> Maybe Aur is out at a club right now. :)
Jun 07 17:07:16 <mbarkhau> I just didn't think anybody would show up on a workday
Jun 07 17:07:24 * pietrosperoni (email@example.com) hat #metascore betreten
Jun 07 17:07:43 <mbarkhau> hi, pietro
Jun 07 17:07:45 <EdPastore> You made it onto IRC, Pietro!
Jun 07 17:07:52 * mbarkhau gibt Op-Status an pietrosperoni
Jun 07 17:08:31 <pietrosperoni> yes.
Jun 07 17:08:33 <pietrosperoni> I made it
Jun 07 17:08:44 <pietrosperoni> first time I use IRC in 10 years or so
Jun 07 17:09:01 <mbarkhau> well hasn't changed much since then I think
Jun 07 17:09:22 <pietrosperoni> I'm at the internet cafe, btw. Hi Manuel, Hi Ed
Jun 07 17:10:01 <EdPastore> Hi. Am I right in remembering that you are in Dublin now Pietro, and Manuel that you are from Ireland?
Jun 07 17:10:01 <pietrosperoni> still my time will be limited by the laptop battery. Even so it's good to chat
Jun 07 17:10:18 <pietrosperoni> Ireland? I thought you were from Germany
Jun 07 17:10:40 <mbarkhau> well I've been here in Germany for over ten years
Jun 07 17:10:58 <mbarkhau> last time I was in ireland was 2 years ago
Jun 07 17:11:11 <pietrosperoni> funny. I was in Germany until 2 years ago. Did my Doctorat there (PhD for anglosaxons)
Jun 07 17:11:47 <mbarkhau> small world I guess
Jun 07 17:11:52 <pietrosperoni> shall we start or we should wait for the others?
Jun 07 17:12:13 <EdPastore> Well, I think we have sort of an answer to the first item on the agenda
Jun 07 17:12:22 <EdPastore> http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Startup/Meetings/1/Agenda
Jun 07 17:12:29 <EdPastore> Member availibility is low at the moment
Jun 07 17:13:05 <mbarkhau> well that is probably has more to do with the few members we habe
Jun 07 17:13:33 <pietrosperoni> my take is that we should go one step at a time
Jun 07 17:14:00 <pietrosperoni> what I mean is that by reading the whole mailing list one time and a half I reached some conclusions
Jun 07 17:14:27 <pietrosperoni> and one of them is that the discussion went around, but did not often reached conclusions
Jun 07 17:14:38 <EdPastore> Very much agreed
Jun 07 17:14:51 <EdPastore> Which is why I would like to move us away from the list server and toward the wiki
Jun 07 17:14:54 <pietrosperoni> often in discussion it is good to have someone who without taking parts keeps the point
Jun 07 17:15:17 <pietrosperoni> like the guy who sits in the middle during discussions (don't know his name)
Jun 07 17:15:29 <mbarkhau> moderator
Jun 07 17:15:31 <mbarkhau> ?
Jun 07 17:15:31 <EdPastore> A secretary or moderator
Jun 07 17:15:50 <EdPastore> The wiki can fill that role
Jun 07 17:16:00 <pietrosperoni> yes
Jun 07 17:16:08 <EdPastore> Using the wikipedia model, if we use encyclopedic language, we have to reach consensus
Jun 07 17:16:16 <pietrosperoni> but we need to have the wiki (now we do) and move there the main discussion
Jun 07 17:16:29 <EdPastore> It is interesting to see people encode their disagreements into encyclopedic language
Jun 07 17:16:33 <mbarkhau> well I like the wiki, but I'd rather keep the discussion on the list than the discussion pages of the wiki
Jun 07 17:16:43 <pietrosperoni> I am not happy with wikipedia, but I do agree that wiki can sometime fill the moderator role
Jun 07 17:16:44 <EdPastore> People can disagree a lot, but they can agree on how to explain that disagreement
Jun 07 17:17:38 <EdPastore> It may be reasonable to keep the discussions on the list server but have them constantly refer to the wiki
Jun 07 17:17:48 <EdPastore> In other words, have the list server drive the development of the wiki
Jun 07 17:17:53 <mbarkhau> right
Jun 07 17:17:55 <pietrosperoni> so my feeling is that we have various level of the discussion
Jun 07 17:18:22 <pietrosperoni> one is where to discuss
Jun 07 17:18:30 <pietrosperoni> another is what should we do
Jun 07 17:18:47 <pietrosperoni> and a third is a broad picture about the whole political situation
Jun 07 17:19:16 <EdPastore> I am not sure I understand your second point above
Jun 07 17:19:31 <pietrosperoni> I would like that we forget the other two for the time being and we all reach a consensus on where we should discuss. Mailing list. discussion group, wiki, wiki+discussion group, ecc. What format.
Jun 07 17:19:52 <pietrosperoni> the second point is: what program should be done.
Jun 07 17:20:30 <mbarkhau> you mean an agenda, or list of goals?
Jun 07 17:20:44 <mbarkhau> or rather things to work on
Jun 07 17:21:20 <mbarkhau> that's sort of in the timeline that's currently on the main page
Jun 07 17:21:29 <mbarkhau> we can keep that in the wiki
Jun 07 17:21:37 <pietrosperoni> what program we should code. Should it be a wiki with wight, or a slashdot or what. You descrivbed quite well a program in your page, but then it all got rediscusse again
Jun 07 17:21:45 <mbarkhau> conclusions also in the
Jun 07 17:21:49 <pietrosperoni> wight=weight
Jun 07 17:21:58 <mbarkhau> oh right you mean the software?
Jun 07 17:22:03 <pietrosperoni> yes!
Jun 07 17:22:15 <mbarkhau> well I was going for a slashdot like system atm
Jun 07 17:22:35 <EdPastore> and Aur has rather a different idea, as I understand
Jun 07 17:22:41 <pietrosperoni> yes, but it is not trivial how you mix slashdot with a wiki
Jun 07 17:22:49 <mbarkhau> well aur has his own ideas, that doesn't mean I got taken off track
Jun 07 17:23:09 <pietrosperoni> so in all cases I think we need a stable place where to discuss where everybody ideas got well explained so that we can all refer to it
Jun 07 17:23:27 <pietrosperoni> a wiki is good, better than a mailing list
Jun 07 17:23:31 <EdPastore> http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Metascore seems to me like the place to do it
Jun 07 17:23:34 <pietrosperoni> but it is not enough
Jun 07 17:23:50 <mbarkhau> well most of the development of the software I've been working on, is in my repositroy
Jun 07 17:24:12 <mbarkhau> that might not be the best place, at least for discussion of it
Jun 07 17:24:26 <EdPastore> Could you provide something like a 1-paragraph description of it on the wiki?
Jun 07 17:24:35 <mbarkhau> I guess
Jun 07 17:24:51 <mbarkhau> I might have something like that anyway
Jun 07 17:24:56 <mbarkhau> somewhere
Jun 07 17:24:57 <EdPastore> I'll ask Aur to do the same... then others will be more likely to look at them and give input
Jun 07 17:25:08 <pietrosperoni> Manuel, I like your repository idea, but I really crave for something trivial. A discussion board were I can read all the last things said
Jun 07 17:25:39 <mbarkhau> well I know what you meay, but it's better for development
Jun 07 17:25:41 <pietrosperoni> a discussion board where to discuss, and a wiki where to cristalize the discussions made
Jun 07 17:26:55 <mbarkhau> really what the software should provide in future is a better integration with version control and the discussion system, but that's somewhat off in the future
Jun 07 17:26:56 <EdPastore> Pietro, are you suggesting perhaps replacing the list server with a bulletin board?
Jun 07 17:27:05 <pietrosperoni> YES
Jun 07 17:27:17 <mbarkhau> well we hat that topic at the very beginning
Jun 07 17:27:25 <pietrosperoni> a bulletin board and a wiki. Together.
Jun 07 17:27:35 <pietrosperoni> yes, and as I said the discussion went nowhere
Jun 07 17:28:08 <mbarkhau> no actually the conclusion was to stay on the list
Jun 07 17:28:23 <pietrosperoni> there was no vote, and since there was a disagreement no change was issued. Which meant that one side which was not even the majority won.
Jun 07 17:29:20 <mbarkhau> well rob peters has set up a board, http://observercollective.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2
Jun 07 17:29:34 <EdPastore> Our current srructure does pretty much lean toward either whatever has inertia or whatever has no dissent
Jun 07 17:29:48 <mbarkhau> right
Jun 07 17:30:34 <EdPastore> In order to have a more sophisticated form of decision-making... we need Metascore
Jun 07 17:30:43 <pietrosperoni> i disagree
Jun 07 17:30:55 <pietrosperoni> we can have something in the meantime, and then have metascore
Jun 07 17:31:03 <pietrosperoni> in face we need something in the meantime
Jun 07 17:31:36 <pietrosperoni> face=fact
Jun 07 17:32:28 <mbarkhau> well the BB hasn't caught too much attention, so I don't see that as a big thing people are lookig for
Jun 07 17:32:54 <mbarkhau> quite frankly I've never heard of an open source project using something like phpBB
Jun 07 17:33:04 <EdPastore> My problem with the BB is that it further dilutes conversation by providing another venue. We have almost as many discussion venues as we have participants
Jun 07 17:33:25 <EdPastore> BB, IRC, list server, two repositories, wiki
Jun 07 17:33:53 <EdPastore> While it is not perfect, a wiki can perform almost all the above functions
Jun 07 17:33:54 <mbarkhau> well the only thing people have used until now is the list server
Jun 07 17:34:15 <EdPastore> I would like to open the wiki up to the public.
Jun 07 17:34:23 <EdPastore> At that point, presumably its participation will grow
Jun 07 17:34:27 <pietrosperoni> well, we have already said that IRC should not be seen for serious topics
Jun 07 17:34:32 <pietrosperoni> this takes away one
Jun 07 17:34:48 <EdPastore> But the wiki will require input from the current members of the group in order to succeed
Jun 07 17:35:05 <pietrosperoni> also the BB was supposed to be inspite of the list server
Jun 07 17:35:57 <EdPastore> Well, as with several other conversations, I am not sure we have input from enough people to make any sort of decision
Jun 07 17:36:17 <pietrosperoni> So I see the BB as the main place. Wiki as the storage, cristalization (also because the wiki needs more people to work properly, so with our current membership it is a very slow medium)
Jun 07 17:36:52 <mbarkhau> I agree with the wiki part
Jun 07 17:37:08 <pietrosperoni> The reason why I never used the BB was because I was not aware of them.
Jun 07 17:37:38 <pietrosperoni> I read the logs offline, and I had no easy connection. So I did not open most of the links
Jun 07 17:38:41 <pietrosperoni> Ed, I think you are right that we need more people. But in the spirit of doing one step at a time, wouldn't it be good to:
Jun 07 17:38:56 <pietrosperoni> a) decide the medium and structure, copyright and secure things
Jun 07 17:39:00 <pietrosperoni> b) open up
Jun 07 17:39:28 <pietrosperoni> c) start to discuss with the things that we can discuss, avoiding the topics we are not expert enough?
Jun 07 17:40:02 <mbarkhau> concerning b and c, we should also open the list server, no?
Jun 07 17:41:25 <EdPastore> I think both the list and the wiki should be opened soon if not now
Jun 07 17:41:27 <pietrosperoni> yes. But if both the list server and the BB are active what will happen?
Jun 07 17:41:37 <EdPastore> right
Jun 07 17:41:48 <mbarkhau> people will go to the one we advertise
Jun 07 17:41:52 <EdPastore> But the BB currently is not part of the metagovernment domain
Jun 07 17:42:08 <EdPastore> We can propose on the list that we move to the BB and see if that gets traction
Jun 07 17:42:21 <EdPastore> If it does, I can ask Chris if he would mind porting the BB to metagovernment.org
Jun 07 17:42:44 <mbarkhau> robert peters has allready done that
Jun 07 17:42:53 <pietrosperoni> what?
Jun 07 17:43:00 <mbarkhau> and not recieved any support as far as I can see
Jun 07 17:43:22 <mbarkhau> Quote: "I have created a forum at http://observercollective.com/forum/ that you
Jun 07 17:43:22 <mbarkhau> should please feel free to use. I think it would be a good way to draw
Jun 07 17:43:22 <mbarkhau> in the many people who long for better government but find mailing lists
Jun 07 17:43:22 <mbarkhau> and repositories intimidating. "
Jun 07 17:43:39 <mbarkhau> in his introductory mail
Jun 07 17:44:58 <pietrosperoni> This is what I said about what would happen if we make the mailing list and the BB coexist.
Jun 07 17:45:08 <pietrosperoni> the risk is that one will kill the other
Jun 07 17:45:26 <pietrosperoni> they are too similar
Jun 07 17:45:47 <EdPastore> I think we can down-play the BB until such time as there is significant support for a move to it
Jun 07 17:45:57 <pietrosperoni> in any case I just registered
Jun 07 17:46:45 <mbarkhau> well it wouldn't be a problem if one killed the other, only if both coexisted and too sepearte dicussions were taking place
Jun 07 17:46:54 <mbarkhau> I agree with ed
Jun 07 17:48:19 <EdPastore> OK, I am trying to keep notes here, and I think I have a good enough plan for this agenda item. My notes read:
Jun 07 17:48:22 <pietrosperoni> I think/feel BB came after mailing list and constitute a significant improvement over them. I think there are big risks.
Jun 07 17:48:25 <EdPastore> Keep e-mail, but propose move to BB
Jun 07 17:48:30 <EdPastore> - If move to BB, ask Chris if can port to metagovernment.org
Jun 07 17:48:34 <EdPastore> Increase use of wiki
Jun 07 17:48:39 <EdPastore> - Manuel and Aur to put descriptions of their repos in wiki
Jun 07 17:48:43 <EdPastore> Make list and wiki open
Jun 07 17:49:19 <EdPastore> Does that work as a plan of action for now?
Jun 07 17:49:22 <mbarkhau> yes
Jun 07 17:49:36 <pietrosperoni> not sure. let me think:
Jun 07 17:50:01 <pietrosperoni> of for points c,d,e
Jun 07 17:50:11 <pietrosperoni> ok for points c,d,e
Jun 07 17:50:51 <pietrosperoni> not sure chris is ok for porting. Even if he is not, we should be ok with having the project spread through different websites.
Jun 07 17:51:20 <EdPastore> ...until we have a nonprofit organization to be responsible for the admin passwords
Jun 07 17:51:34 <EdPastore> (but that's later on the agenda)
Jun 07 17:51:44 <pietrosperoni> about point a. As long as the e.mail is there BB will be ignored. SO I feel the solution does not really solve the point raised.
Jun 07 17:52:05 <EdPastore> Me either, but I don't think only the three of us can resolve it
Jun 07 17:52:26 <pietrosperoni> there was a suggestion of having a BB that can also be accessed via email
Jun 07 17:52:33 <pietrosperoni> how do you guy feel about that?
Jun 07 17:53:10 <mbarkhau> that is in fact something I'm thinking of incorporating into the software
Jun 07 17:53:10 <EdPastore> I haven't looked at such solutions recently, but in my past experience, implementing bb-list gatewatys is not very easy
Jun 07 17:53:21 <mbarkhau> not sure such a thing exists already
Jun 07 17:53:46 <EdPastore> there is a mail-to-news gateway for mailman (the current list server software)
Jun 07 17:53:48 <pietrosperoni> No? I thought yahoo groups did that, for example (I know yahoo sucks, but still).
Jun 07 17:53:57 <EdPastore> That allows a list server to also mirror in a usenet newsgroup
Jun 07 17:53:58 <mbarkhau> the main problem is association an email with a person, since anybody can forge the from header in an email
Jun 07 17:54:15 <EdPastore> Yahoo can do it because they have the resources
Jun 07 17:56:00 <mbarkhau> that was the reason for all the pgp crypto stuff
Jun 07 17:56:09 <pietrosperoni> you know Ed. The issue I have with mail is that (a) everybody have to read everything. (b) the discussion do not get sorted in a neatly fashion. If anyone can find a system that people are willing to accept that does not have those limitations I would be happy. (and more dynamic that the wiki)
Jun 07 17:57:12 <mbarkhau> well that I think has more to do with the nature of discussions, as is evident in this one, they are disorganized
Jun 07 17:57:24 <EdPastore> I have the same criticisms of the list server
Jun 07 17:57:42 <mbarkhau> what has been lacking, will hopefully be aleviated by the wiki
Jun 07 17:57:44 <EdPastore> but I think we need more people before we feel forced to move elsewhere
Jun 07 17:58:31 <pietrosperoni> what about having a small discussion board in each wiki page. Like the comments page on wikipedia, and use that for each topic
Jun 07 17:59:07 <EdPastore> I had been working on something like that using Vanilla BB.
Jun 07 17:59:31 <EdPastore> (I am not fond of phpBB)
Jun 07 17:59:59 <EdPastore> But then I was wondering why we can't just use the Talk pages on the wiki
Jun 07 18:00:00 <pietrosperoni> The wiki has other problem. The first person who poses a topic in a wiki pretty much decides where it will go. By framing it in a particular way, makes it inevitable where it goes. Thsi is why I think a discussion board (or even a mailing list) with the wiki is better than the wiki alone
Jun 07 18:00:16 <EdPastore> They are not as clean for having a conversation, but perhaps that also helps lend toward consensus building
Jun 07 18:00:45 <EdPastore> It is easy to move stuff on a wiki... I move wikipedia articles rather frequently
Jun 07 18:01:27 <pietrosperoni> but do you restructure articles with the same frequency?
Jun 07 18:01:48 <EdPastore> Much more frequently
Jun 07 18:01:59 <EdPastore> I am not opposed to completely re-writing an article if it needs it
Jun 07 18:02:08 <pietrosperoni> fair enough, then I should learn from you.
Jun 07 18:02:23 <EdPastore> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BB
Jun 07 18:02:43 <pietrosperoni> next issue. As we use two different medium, are we going to require everybody to use both?
Jun 07 18:03:06 <EdPastore> Well, we can't force anyone, but I have been pushing the wiki pretty hard
Jun 07 18:03:19 <EdPastore> As stuff starts to get into the wiki, hopefully people will tend to want to use it
Jun 07 18:03:51 <pietrosperoni> wiki are famous for wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia. So people tend to use wiki as an encyclopedia mostly
Jun 07 18:04:11 <pietrosperoni> but is this what we want/need?
Jun 07 18:04:18 <pietrosperoni> what other possibilities are there?
Jun 07 18:04:20 <EdPastore> Yes, the success of wikipedia is that everyone can agree on the basic way to describe things
Jun 07 18:04:32 <EdPastore> That is not true with people agreeing how eople should be governed
Jun 07 18:04:36 <pietrosperoni> LOL.@Ed
Jun 07 18:04:59 <EdPastore> Which is why I have been a little leery of simply opening everything up completely
Jun 07 18:05:00 <pietrosperoni> I stopped editing wikipedia for I disagreed with their basic view of reality
Jun 07 18:05:42 <mbarkhau> so reality as reflected in wikipeadia is as it is seen by wikipedians =)
Jun 07 18:05:47 <pietrosperoni> it is easier to disagree on a BB. On a wiki your view will be silenced, and the frustration of seing your view totally disappear can be such that people leave the wiki
Jun 07 18:06:02 <mbarkhau> well reality is always just an aproximation anyway
Jun 07 18:06:31 <EdPastore> The changelog is always available... so at least your edit history is there. ;)
Jun 07 18:06:47 <mbarkhau> you're view will only be silenced if you don't have enought support by others
Jun 07 18:07:06 <pietrosperoni> or by an administrator
Jun 07 18:07:08 <EdPastore> Usually, the Talk pages on Wikipedia do not get deleted; so you may get cut out of an article, but your views should remain in the discussion
Jun 07 18:07:25 <pietrosperoni> I have seen that on wikipedia where articles where deleted so that they did not even remain in the log
Jun 07 18:07:52 <pietrosperoni> but the talk do not contain the view just the discussion about the view
Jun 07 18:08:04 <EdPastore> Yeah... completely deleted articles do go away, but the discussion of why to delete them remains
Jun 07 18:08:54 <EdPastore> I think we are just going to have to try it and see what happens
Jun 07 18:09:04 <mbarkhau> well in our context, you could always protest on the mailing list, for everybody to see
Jun 07 18:09:10 <EdPastore> We are so different in scope from wikipedia, that it is diddicult to imagine what will happen
Jun 07 18:09:35 <pietrosperoni> Look, honestly I have seen a lot of abuses on wikipedia but wikipedians, and local administrators. At this point wikipedia is pretty mucha self fulfillin prophecy where anyone who disagrees goes away, and what remains claim to be the truth and the majority
Jun 07 18:10:17 <pietrosperoni> ok.
Jun 07 18:10:36 <pietrosperoni> so back to the points:
Jun 07 18:10:44 <pietrosperoni> a) open up the wiki and the mailing list
Jun 07 18:11:01 <pietrosperoni> b) ask chris to move the bb to the metagovernment.org
Jun 07 18:11:26 <pietrosperoni> c) make a not for profit foundation that will be responsible of the administrator password
Jun 07 18:11:39 <EdPastore> Before b), I would like to ask the list server what they think
Jun 07 18:11:52 <EdPastore> and c) is coming up on the agenda for this meeting
Jun 07 18:12:02 <pietrosperoni> yes. The points where meant as the proposal to be made to the list server
Jun 07 18:12:25 <EdPastore> OK, but I think point a pretty much has consensus
Jun 07 18:12:42 <EdPastore> How about if I post my minutes of this meeting to the wiki and ask people to review it?
Jun 07 18:12:46 <mbarkhau> I think I'll write up an article in the wiki on etiquette for the mailing list, maybe it will help keep the discussion more structured
Jun 07 18:12:56 <EdPastore> :)
Jun 07 18:13:38 <pietrosperoni> maybe we could have the minute on the wiki in a color, and the comment of people with another color, in between the lines. Would that be possible?
Jun 07 18:14:07 <pietrosperoni> I also have a freind who is interested. Should I invite him over, or wait that we open up?
Jun 07 18:14:43 <mbarkhau> what is the timeframe for opening up anyway?
Jun 07 18:15:18 <EdPastore> Well, I can either open both up today, or I can post the minutes and ask people to review before I open them...
Jun 07 18:15:38 <EdPastore> I was considering the second option
Jun 07 18:16:05 <mbarkhau> well we can wait a day I guess
Jun 07 18:16:45 <pietrosperoni> if we are opening very soon it really makes no difference
Jun 07 18:16:58 <EdPastore> OK. I'll tell people that I am opening them tomorrow night unless anyone objects
Jun 07 18:17:12 <pietrosperoni> +1 :)
Jun 07 18:17:16 <mbarkhau> +1
Jun 07 18:17:47 <pietrosperoni> good! progress!!
Jun 07 18:17:54 <pietrosperoni> very happy!
Jun 07 18:18:05 <EdPastore> Great. The next item on the agenda is the timeling
Jun 07 18:18:06 <EdPastore> http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Main_Page#Development_timeline
Jun 07 18:18:13 <mbarkhau> how much battery you have left pietro ? =)
Jun 07 18:18:26 <pietrosperoni> 1:49
Jun 07 18:18:34 <EdPastore> The meeting scheduled for Feb 2009 is (sort of) happening right now
Jun 07 18:18:36 <pietrosperoni> nough
Jun 07 18:20:02 <mbarkhau> well I'm developing on weekends, and can't say much about how long it will take
Jun 07 18:20:11 <mbarkhau> how is the hosting situation
Jun 07 18:20:26 <EdPastore> Maybe we need to table this agenda item for now.
Jun 07 18:20:34 <EdPastore> I got us moved to a new server, which helped
Jun 07 18:20:44 <pietrosperoni> good.
Jun 07 18:21:09 <mbarkhau> do we have ssh to that server? what kind of software can we put on it?
Jun 07 18:21:29 <EdPastore> It is a pretty standard cpanel hosting account
Jun 07 18:21:51 <EdPastore> https://www.asmallorange.com/services/hosting/features.php
Jun 07 18:22:06 <EdPastore> I don't think I have ssh
Jun 07 18:22:35 <mbarkhau> mysql and python
Jun 07 18:22:39 <mbarkhau> good enough
Jun 07 18:22:47 <pietrosperoni> i will miss python
Jun 07 18:23:04 <pietrosperoni> but then I might make a python version of the metascore thingy.
Jun 07 18:23:32 <mbarkhau> well what I'm doing now is in python
Jun 07 18:23:33 <pietrosperoni> it will probably be 1/10th of the size and slower. :) But might be easier to modify
Jun 07 18:23:39 <mbarkhau> with django
Jun 07 18:23:51 <EdPastore> I am certainly not a programmer, but it is my uderstanding that people are pretty happy with ruby these days
Jun 07 18:23:57 <pietrosperoni> but you use python! But this is wonderful.
Jun 07 18:24:06 <mbarkhau> ruby is like java just slower
Jun 07 18:24:15 <mbarkhau> and for some reason more popular
Jun 07 18:24:25 <EdPastore> well, that doesn't sound that great :)
Jun 07 18:24:28 <mbarkhau> I don't know what people see in it
Jun 07 18:24:35 <mbarkhau> imho
Jun 07 18:24:43 <pietrosperoni> being a scientist pyhton is better for me. But ruby I heard is better to write up websites
Jun 07 18:25:22 <pietrosperoni> i think you can make up a website in few steps with ruby on rails. With login and all the jazz
Jun 07 18:25:51 <EdPastore> Well, I spec'd PHP/MySQL for Metascore only because that's the sort of de-facto standard. But I'll take anything that works!
Jun 07 18:25:54 <EdPastore> https://sourceforge.net/projects/metascore/
Jun 07 18:26:00 <pietrosperoni> :)
Jun 07 18:26:01 <mbarkhau> well I think people are more interested in the rails part than the ruby
Jun 07 18:26:14 <pietrosperoni> python would have the added benefit to be understandable
Jun 07 18:26:22 <pietrosperoni> which is VERY important for our project
Jun 07 18:26:47 <mbarkhau> well I intended this as a prototype
Jun 07 18:27:07 <pietrosperoni> sure. But you can go very far with python
Jun 07 18:27:09 <mbarkhau> but if we atract python developers, I hardly see the final software being in anything other than python
Jun 07 18:27:28 <pietrosperoni> isn't panda3d written in python?
Jun 07 18:28:02 <pietrosperoni> I am not sure. Once the algorithm are sorted and all is smooth, then you can have the algorithm being offered in all versions
Jun 07 18:28:06 <mbarkhau> I think that's a strech
Jun 07 18:28:15 <mbarkhau> most 3d stuff is in c
Jun 07 18:28:19 <pietrosperoni> you will have php, python, c, c++ and ruby
Jun 07 18:28:52 <mbarkhau> sure
Jun 07 18:29:13 <pietrosperoni> in any case if both manuel and me are into python, this is good. I wonder the others.
Jun 07 18:29:23 <mbarkhau> and it's open, nobody stopping you from writing in it in lisp or haskell
Jun 07 18:29:31 <pietrosperoni> right
Jun 07 18:30:07 <EdPastore> I'm starting to run out of time for today... could we talk about the non-profit?
Jun 07 18:30:18 <mbarkhau> k
Jun 07 18:30:23 <pietrosperoni> here is a question. Ed you mention making the not for profit before we get money from donations
Jun 07 18:30:44 <EdPastore> We also need some entity to be responsible for the passwords, etc.
Jun 07 18:30:59 <pietrosperoni> but do we need to get donations? I mean each of us can host metagovernment for free.
Jun 07 18:31:15 <pietrosperoni> agreed on that
Jun 07 18:31:20 <EdPastore> I was thinking of that... why not use a completely distributed model of ownership?
Jun 07 18:31:33 <EdPastore> But then I started to wonder how we stop malicious third parties
Jun 07 18:31:54 <pietrosperoni> i like the idea. I am only REALLY scared that it would push people away who do not want to deal with the complication
Jun 07 18:31:56 <EdPastore> Having a single entity gives those people a target to attack, but it also gives us something to defend
Jun 07 18:32:35 <pietrosperoni> calm down guys. (Actually Ed). We are not being attacked yet. At most they laugh at us right now.
Jun 07 18:32:52 <EdPastore> Right, but we have to be a little forward-looking
Jun 07 18:32:56 <mbarkhau> first they laugh..
Jun 07 18:33:08 <EdPastore> If this is to be any kind of government, then it cannot be entrusted to one individual to administer it
Jun 07 18:33:23 <pietrosperoni> and then they keep on laughing if we don't come out with a good algorithm that revolutionises discussions. :D
Jun 07 18:33:33 <EdPastore> ;)
Jun 07 18:33:36 <pietrosperoni> fully agreed
Jun 07 18:33:44 <mbarkhau> and they would be right
Jun 07 18:33:58 <pietrosperoni> brb
Jun 07 18:34:11 <EdPastore> I still am not sure how we resolve the trust issue
Jun 07 18:34:20 <mbarkhau> I don't see that we have enough people right now to form an organization
Jun 07 18:34:35 <EdPastore> But we need the organization before we have more people :)
Jun 07 18:34:43 <EdPastore> It's the same trust issue...
Jun 07 18:34:53 <mbarkhau> I don't think so
Jun 07 18:34:56 <EdPastore> Who do I give additional admin passwords to?
Jun 07 18:35:13 <mbarkhau> admin for what?
Jun 07 18:35:14 <EdPastore> At what point do we say that this person can be trusted with being an admin of the government?
Jun 07 18:35:17 <mbarkhau> the wiki?
Jun 07 18:35:26 <EdPastore> For everything we create
Jun 07 18:35:42 <EdPastore> The wiki, the sourceforge account, Metascore once it is running
Jun 07 18:36:14 <mbarkhau> ok I see where you're comming from, you don't like the entire community being dependant on you?
Jun 07 18:36:33 <EdPastore> Heck no, for several reasons
Jun 07 18:36:40 <EdPastore> It makes me a target
Jun 07 18:36:53 <EdPastore> And it makes everyone dependant on their trust in me
Jun 07 18:37:37 <EdPastore> A formal organization is also vulnerable to corruption, but at least it has more than one person in it and it can have checks and balances
Jun 07 18:37:45 <EdPastore> And it can be globally distributed
Jun 07 18:38:00 <pietrosperoni> back
Jun 07 18:38:24 <mbarkhau> ok, but I don't see anybody here or on the list with enough commitment to form an organization
Jun 07 18:38:33 <pietrosperoni> I thnk for now we shouldnot worry
Jun 07 18:38:36 <EdPastore> by "target" I mean point of failure
Jun 07 18:38:51 <EdPastore> I am willing to do most of the work in forming one
Jun 07 18:39:01 <EdPastore> My main obstacle has been in figuring out what/where to form
Jun 07 18:39:14 <EdPastore> I do not think we want to be a United States corporation
Jun 07 18:39:21 <pietrosperoni> at the moment we are a bunch of intellectuals who are trying to make a computer program. Until this is ready we can postpone the issue, I would say
Jun 07 18:39:23 <EdPastore> Which is what most non-profits formed here are
Jun 07 18:40:12 <mbarkhau> I agree with pietro, atm we don't need donations either and I doubt we would receive any
Jun 07 18:40:25 <pietrosperoni> once we have the software, we can start to use it, and THEN the website becomes important
Jun 07 18:40:31 <EdPastore> Well... I am donating a little to host the account :)
Jun 07 18:40:48 <mbarkhau> well we're all donating our time
Jun 07 18:40:49 <EdPastore> site, I mean
Jun 07 18:41:02 <pietrosperoni> Yes, Ed. And I just donated you 10 euro to keep on speaking with you.
Jun 07 18:41:19 <pietrosperoni> to the internet cafè :D
Jun 07 18:41:25 <EdPastore> I can see your points, but hopefully you see mine that I don't want to be a point of failure
Jun 07 18:41:35 <mbarkhau> what I was referring to were donations where the question would come up, where to invest them
Jun 07 18:41:35 <pietrosperoni> i very much agree
Jun 07 18:41:58 <pietrosperoni> the risk onthat is not that you turn evil at this point (later yes), but that you might loose interest
Jun 07 18:42:01 <mbarkhau> ok, then that should be our focus
Jun 07 18:42:19 <mbarkhau> rather that forming an organization
Jun 07 18:42:58 <EdPastore> Well, my point in the organization is its status as a legal entity
Jun 07 18:43:07 <EdPastore> Then the entity can be the "person in charge"
Jun 07 18:43:23 <EdPastore> instead of any single individual
Jun 07 18:43:36 <pietrosperoni> one solution is to have who owns the namespace (the url), and who controls the software two different people
Jun 07 18:44:16 <pietrosperoni> in fact we could even have a rule (IDEA!) that for every piece a different person should be in charge
Jun 07 18:44:20 <mbarkhau> well nobody controls the software, anybody can make a copy of the reop so that is'nt an issue
Jun 07 18:44:21 <EdPastore> I was thinking of that, but while it eliminates a single point of failure... in another way it just makes for two points of failure
Jun 07 18:44:38 <pietrosperoni> so if you Ed have the website name, someone else should have the wiki, and someone else should have the BB
Jun 07 18:44:59 <pietrosperoni> yes, and the content is free.
Jun 07 18:45:17 <mbarkhau> so is there a mechanism to back up the wiki
Jun 07 18:45:27 <EdPastore> Excuse my paranoia (some of it comes from working in I.T.), but the problem with having individuals in charge is that they can be secretly compromised
Jun 07 18:45:43 <pietrosperoni> can you explain better
Jun 07 18:45:51 <pietrosperoni> (I might want to make a movie of this one ;))
Jun 07 18:45:57 <EdPastore> So someone can get control of me or my account without you knowing it, then can subtly pervert the project
Jun 07 18:46:18 <EdPastore> If there is a publicly organized institution, then it cannot so easily be compromised
Jun 07 18:46:19 <pietrosperoni> get control of you? Like a demon or what?
Jun 07 18:46:39 <EdPastore> Like the many, many really nasty people out there who do not want the people to run the government
Jun 07 18:46:40 <mbarkhau> well this is all fairly academic as far as I'm concerned
Jun 07 18:46:51 <EdPastore> for now it is totally academic
Jun 07 18:46:53 <EdPastore> for now
Jun 07 18:46:59 <pietrosperoni> I am lost
Jun 07 18:47:13 <mbarkhau> I'd be completely satisfied if I could make a backup of the wiki and we have a fallback plan should the server go down
Jun 07 18:47:46 <pietrosperoni> ok, evilcorp.com comes to you, and says, Ed we give you all you wanted if you turn evil. You way yes, and then what will you do? You only have control of the website name
Jun 07 18:47:47 <EdPastore> I don't have much experience administering MediaWiki, but I believe it is made to be mirrored
Jun 07 18:47:57 <EdPastore> Notice how many sites reuse wikipedia content?
Jun 07 18:48:02 <mbarkhau> right
Jun 07 18:48:32 <EdPastore> Right now it is just a website. But when Metascore is running, it is a primitive government
Jun 07 18:48:40 <EdPastore> Perhaps even before metascore is running
Jun 07 18:48:56 <EdPastore> Any government has to be concerned with its security
Jun 07 18:49:12 <mbarkhau> right but that's not the topic right now I think
Jun 07 18:49:17 <EdPastore> And I'd like to address it before it is an issue. Otherwise, we might lean toward non-open methods to achieve our security
Jun 07 18:49:17 <pietrosperoni> How do you raise the eyebrow as an emoticon?
Jun 07 18:49:29 <mbarkhau> o_O
Jun 07 18:49:32 <pietrosperoni> >:)
Jun 07 18:49:50 <pietrosperoni> ok how you did that . i see needing that a LOT
Jun 07 18:50:07 <mbarkhau> brb
Jun 07 18:50:53 <pietrosperoni> Ed, would it be ok to give control of everything to other people. One person each software?
Jun 07 18:51:03 <pietrosperoni> someone the wiki, someone the BB, and so on?
Jun 07 18:51:20 <EdPastore> Sort of... but as the holder of the hosting account, I still have power over them all
Jun 07 18:51:22 <pietrosperoni> so you just point the website to their domain. A domain for person
Jun 07 18:51:28 <EdPastore> hm
Jun 07 18:51:28 <pietrosperoni> each having a subdomain
Jun 07 18:51:43 <pietrosperoni> BB.metascore would point to chris website
Jun 07 18:51:58 <pietrosperoni> wiki.metascore would point to someone else website
Jun 07 18:51:58 <EdPastore> Then I still have control over where the subdomains point
Jun 07 18:52:26 <pietrosperoni> sure, you can do that. But the instant you do that, is the instant you have thrown the mask. That is the only thing you can do.
Jun 07 18:52:48 <EdPastore> True... it is a nice check.
Jun 07 18:53:12 <EdPastore> But I still am not comfortable with having individuals in charge of things; even if it is different individuals in different things
Jun 07 18:53:36 <EdPastore> I think that I am going to start work on creating an institution and see if I can get people interested in it.
Jun 07 18:53:44 <pietrosperoni> but it is better than all to the same person, right?
Jun 07 18:54:27 <EdPastore> Better in terms of not having one point of failure, but worse in having many more possible points of failure
Jun 07 18:54:51 <EdPastore> If I cannot get some sort of organization started soon, then we should do this distributed model
Jun 07 18:54:54 <pietrosperoni> I have problems with institution. Democracies in the west are actually surviving because we have that thing which is known as divisions of powers. In institutions is quite easy for few (1) person to control the whole thing
Jun 07 18:55:03 <EdPastore> But give me a month or two to work on the organization
Jun 07 18:55:08 <pietrosperoni> ok
Jun 07 18:55:12 <pietrosperoni> other idea
Jun 07 18:55:29 <EdPastore> Yeah... but maybe we can pick the right kind of institution
Jun 07 18:55:32 <pietrosperoni> maybe we should have metascore and metagovernment as two separated elements
Jun 07 18:55:37 <EdPastore> like a cooperative, for example
Jun 07 18:56:08 <pietrosperoni> so the metascore is just the software. But not the implementation of it.
Jun 07 18:56:09 <mbarkhau> re
Jun 07 18:56:27 <mbarkhau> how about something like google groups?
Jun 07 18:56:28 <pietrosperoni> then the implementation of it, I mean one of them is our metagovernment.
Jun 07 18:56:37 <pietrosperoni> how do gg work?
Jun 07 18:57:13 <mbarkhau> basically like an old usenet group
Jun 07 18:57:34 <pietrosperoni> can be seen as a discussion group?
Jun 07 18:57:53 <mbarkhau> ?
Jun 07 18:58:05 <pietrosperoni> ??
Jun 07 18:58:32 <EdPastore> I just e-mailed Aur (since he just e-mailed the list)
Jun 07 18:59:21 <EdPastore> Manuel, what are you proposing gg-like system for?
Jun 07 18:59:22 <mbarkhau> guess he's not in a club after all
Jun 07 18:59:33 <EdPastore> :)
Jun 07 18:59:39 <mbarkhau> well then we wouldn't be dependant on one person
Jun 07 18:59:50 <mbarkhau> the only question would be wether you trust google
Jun 07 18:59:59 <EdPastore> Right
Jun 07 19:00:17 <EdPastore> Eventually, if we are successful, then we certainly will not want to trust any one for-profit corporation
Jun 07 19:01:00 <EdPastore> Pietro, the question of two different organizations is on the agenda as well.
Jun 07 19:01:13 <EdPastore> In talking about forming one, I guess I was referring to Metagovernment
Jun 07 19:01:36 <EdPastore> Metascore is still too vague to know how it should be organized (or if it needs any sort of organization)
Jun 07 19:01:57 <EdPastore> I think Metagovernment's organization can perform any tasks Metascore may need until Metascore outgrows it.
Jun 07 19:02:21 <pietrosperoni> funny. I would see metascore as being before metagov.
Jun 07 19:02:31 <mbarkhau> me too
Jun 07 19:02:43 <mbarkhau> well not the final software
Jun 07 19:02:47 <mbarkhau> but something usable
Jun 07 19:03:08 <EdPastore> I think I see what you mean... I just see MG as more vulnerable than MS
Jun 07 19:03:17 <EdPastore> But I could try forming two orgs at the same time...
Jun 07 19:03:28 <pietrosperoni> but this is the whole point
Jun 07 19:03:35 <pietrosperoni> MG is more vulnerable
Jun 07 19:03:41 <pietrosperoni> but for now we don't need it
Jun 07 19:03:46 <pietrosperoni> MS is not vulnerable.
Jun 07 19:04:05 <mbarkhau> the only conclusion I can see for now is:
Jun 07 19:04:16 <pietrosperoni> and if you form two orgs at the same time then they would both refer to you. Which is what we don't want
Jun 07 19:04:35 <mbarkhau> - finding support for forming an organization
Jun 07 19:04:51 <mbarkhau> - laying out a backup plan, should something happen to the servers
Jun 07 19:05:00 <EdPastore> The two orgs may have me as a founder, but each would have a board of directors (of which I might or might not be a member)
Jun 07 19:05:42 <mbarkhau> why two?
Jun 07 19:06:08 <EdPastore> Metascore and Metagovernment
Jun 07 19:06:10 <EdPastore> perhaps
Jun 07 19:06:15 <pietrosperoni> I don't know. I think we should bring all this to the mailing list. My issue with all this is that it should not go to fast, and should be distributed in everything. The founders, the board, the members, the owners, and the administrators.
Jun 07 19:06:30 <mbarkhau> I don't think the software needs its own formal organization
Jun 07 19:07:16 <pietrosperoni> agreed with Manuel on this (at least for now).
Jun 07 19:07:42 <EdPastore> How about this, then? I will start writing up my ideas at http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Startup/Organization (nothing there right now), then will present that to the list server
Jun 07 19:07:56 <mbarkhau> +1
Jun 07 19:08:49 <pietrosperoni> ++1
Jun 07 19:09:03 <pietrosperoni> in fact what if we all do it?
Jun 07 19:09:16 <mbarkhau> well it is a wiki...
Jun 07 19:09:16 <EdPastore> Sure thing... that's the fun of a wiki
Jun 07 19:09:20 <EdPastore> :)
Jun 07 19:09:35 <mbarkhau> ok and the fallback plan
Jun 07 19:09:38 <mbarkhau> ?
Jun 07 19:09:58 <EdPastore> for the servers?
Jun 07 19:10:12 <mbarkhau> well for regrouping should something happen yes
Jun 07 19:10:20 <EdPastore> That has me a little stumped. I have worked in IT a lot and am used to having my own servers. A hosted account is something I am not used to
Jun 07 19:10:42 <mbarkhau> I'm not so concerned about the servers, just about keeping everybody together if something should happen
Jun 07 19:10:43 <EdPastore> I had suggested on the list that in the worst case, this IRC channel be used as an emergency regrouping point
Jun 07 19:11:17 <mbarkhau> that's fine for me
Jun 07 19:11:53 <EdPastore> There is also the sourceforge project
Jun 07 19:12:03 <EdPastore> Would either of you like to be an admin there?
Jun 07 19:12:12 <mbarkhau> well that an I have the email adresses of everybody, so I think we could regroup pretty easily
Jun 07 19:12:29 <mbarkhau> sure
Jun 07 19:12:30 <EdPastore> good point
Jun 07 19:13:06 <EdPastore> I would just need your SF username
Jun 07 19:13:18 <mbarkhau> if I have on, let me look
Jun 07 19:13:20 <pietrosperoni> well, we all have everybody email address. so it seems a non issue
Jun 07 19:13:39 <pietrosperoni> I even put them in the mindmap
Jun 07 19:14:10 <pietrosperoni> which eventually I stopped doing because I got tired to reread the same thing for the second time.
Jun 07 19:14:50 <EdPastore> understood. :)
Jun 07 19:15:02 <pietrosperoni> battery nearly gone
Jun 07 19:15:08 <pietrosperoni> anything else?
Jun 07 19:15:21 <mbarkhau> well I think that's settled, what else is on the agenda?
Jun 07 19:15:31 <EdPastore> The last agenda item was about the wiki, but I think we have mostly already talked about it
Jun 07 19:15:39 <pietrosperoni> good.
Jun 07 19:16:08 <EdPastore> I'll start working on the minutes for this meeting soon
Jun 07 19:16:14 <EdPastore> Manuel, did you make a transcript?
Jun 07 19:16:35 <mbarkhau> well I have the log here yes
Jun 07 19:17:08 <EdPastore> Once I have the wiki page, maybe you could link it from there?
Jun 07 19:17:21 <mbarkhau> ok
Jun 07 19:18:31 <pietrosperoni> something not on the agenda.
Jun 07 19:18:49 <pietrosperoni> Have you noticed facebook, the use of groups.
Jun 07 19:19:00 <pietrosperoni> they often work as a way to change the rules.
Jun 07 19:19:19 <pietrosperoni> someone would make a group with a title that express what they want.
Jun 07 19:19:27 <pietrosperoni> inside all the details.
NOTE: More about this in Good_examples
Jun 07 19:19:39 <pietrosperoni> and then everybody and their mother would join
Jun 07 19:19:58 <pietrosperoni> and once the group has many people the power that be notice it, and decide.
Jun 07 19:20:38 <pietrosperoni> it is not yet what we want (for example the power that be are in charge), but the structure is interesting.
Jun 07 19:20:48 <EdPastore> I have not really used Facebook, but that is interesting
Jun 07 19:21:31 <EdPastore> It sounds like something that would work within the wiki model
Jun 07 19:21:59 <pietrosperoni> yes.
Jun 07 19:22:43 <mbarkhau> my sf account is mbarkhau
Jun 07 19:23:17 <pietrosperoni> ok, gotta go. I'd rather keep some minutes in the battery, in case I need them
Jun 07 19:23:26 <mbarkhau> cya
Jun 07 19:23:29 <pietrosperoni> nice to have talked to you guys
Jun 07 19:23:33 <EdPastore> OK, I'm off too
Jun 07 19:23:39 <EdPastore> Thanks for coming; this has been great
Jun 07 19:23:52 <EdPastore> First draft of minutes are at http://www.metagovernment.org/wiki/Startup/Meetings/1/Minutes
Jun 07 19:24:21 * EdPastore hat die Verbindung getrennt (Remote closed the connection)
Jun 07 19:25:37 * pietrosperoni hat die Verbindung getrennt ()